Five Superhero films that have greatness somewhere in them

Five Superhero films that have greatness somewhere in them

Marvel, DC, etc. There are plenty of superhero movies from enjoyable to a stinkbox that in them is a great movie that wasn't there.

Editorial Opinion
By EdgyOutsider - Sep 12, 2014 08:09 PM EST
Filed Under: Comics

Superhero movies are a global phenomenon right now thanks to The Dark Knight trilogy and most Marvel films. But, for ever Dark Knight or Avengers we get there is also a Batman & Robin and Howard the Duck. Here, I will look at five superhero films that rank from enjoyable to flat out sucking but deep down, is a great movie that was fully realized one way or another. 

5: X-Men: The Last Stand
X-Men: The Last Stand is a film that was set up to have an epic finale for the X-Men trilogy. Bryan Singer left to go do Superman Returns, Matthew Vaugn left the project for personal reasons and that's when they got, Brett Ratner. Deep down, there is a great movie in here. They have a great story concept in the cure and they have a brillaint story in the Phoenix saga. The problem lies in the fact that the film is under two hours and focuses more on the cure story and pushes the Phoenix story as a subplot. Again, this isn't a good film more than just it's choosing to push the big story to a subplot. But, the film has greatness hidden within. Production problems and Ratner's direction just really screwed over audiences and the project.

4: Spider-Man 3
Yes, I'm starting with the two most obvious ones. X-Men and Spider-Man are the two franchises that rejuvinated the superhero film genre and have fantastic first and second installments. The problem for Spider-Man 3 is studio meddling in. Sam Rami had it set in his mind for New Goblin and Sandman to be the villains of the piece. Which, I don't agree with but, who knows how that film would've turned out. The studio pushed for Venom for obvious reasons and ultimately, led to Raimi not putting his heart and soul into the film and it really shows. While I still enjoy the film despite it's glaring problems and it's easily the weakest in the franchise, the greatness could've been there. But that's a combination of the studio and Raimi. I love Sam's work but, Venom is a better choice villain than Sandman and if they would've given Harry a more interesting story in the film, the combination of the two would've made for a compelling, dark and brutal story. But, the studio forced Raimi and it was Raimi's job to make the film work and he didn't succeed. So, who knows what could've been.

3: Batman Forever
Studio is fully to blame on this one. Campiness is the way they deicded to go because somehow the Tim Burton Batman films were too dark and the studio asked him to back down as a producer. Batman Forever was too campy and over the top for it's own good but, the over the top performance of Carrey as Riddler is no doubt enjoyable and fun to watch. There's a great film in this somewhere especially when you had The Riddler as the villain and have him deduce Batman's identity.  The Riddler is a fantastic villain to have a dark interpretation of as well as Two-Face (this was later proven in The Dark Knight). But, it all goes back to making it more family friendly and selling toys. We could've had a fantastic trilogy here but sadly, it wasn't meant to be. Then again, all those deleted scenes didn't help either.

2: Man of Steel
I'm about to get a lot of flack for this, I just know it. Putting my feelings towards Zack Snyder and David Goyer aside, this could've actually been a really great film. You can see it in the film that the potential of the film was just there. What holds the film back is excessive and repetitive fight sequences, lack of character development and the fact that it was Batman Begins but a Superman take on it with an alien invasion. Essentially, a generic blockbuster. The potential for greatness was there. If the fight scenes would've been a bit unique and different from each other, better cgi and a hell of a lot more character development. Maybe it would've been better. Not to mention that films like the first Iron Man, The Dark Knight and The Amazing Spider-Man films proved that you can truly focus on relationships and characters but still have the awe of a superhero film to blend in with the action an character development. Zack Snyder's style fits Superman. When Snyder was attached to Man of Steel, I pictured the visual style similar to that of Watchmen. That would've been breathtaking. But, as I said it doesn't become this great film due to lack of development, generic story, the same structure as Batman Begins and the excessive and repetitive action. What could have been...

1: The Amazing Spider-Man 2
I've been saying this since I saw the film opening day, this film had so much potential and you can see greatness in the film. It could've surpassed The Amazing Spider-Man for the best Spider-Man film (I grew up on the Raimi trilogy and love them but, The Amazing Spider-Man 1 does the property better overall). The problem is once again, the studio.  The film suffers from what Iron Man 2 suffered from and what I feel Batman V. Superman is going to suffer from. Too many unnecesary characters and plot points that could've easily been dropped but instead focused too much on establishing a larger universe. Take out Electro and Rhino. Focus on the relationships that Peter has with Aunt May, Gwen and Harry as well as Harry's relationship with Norman. Keep the parents subplot as well as Peter dealing with Gwen going to college. Then for a post credit scene, use the scene where the man in the shadows visits Harry in Ravencroft and they hint at Sinister Six. Carry over the realistic, fun tone of the first film that still had an overall sense of darkness to it. This would've made the film that much tighter, compelling and more emotional. Although the emotion in the film works, particularly that of Gwen's death that really showcased Garfield's range as an actor and it was so powerful, you as an audience member felt the emotion and possibly like me, actually have tears. This film is the biggest example of a superhero movie that clearly had greatness within it but ultimately didn't show it simply cause of a Studio wanting this and that and ultimately giving the director so much to do that it collapses on itself because it's so uneven.

What do you guys think? Agree? Disagree? Did I miss any films that are enjoyable or flat out bad that clearly had greatness in them but ultimately wasn't for one reason or another? Comment below with your thoughts.

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ScottMontgomery
ScottMontgomery - 9/12/2014, 8:58 PM
I agree with you on Man of Steel, I really think the movie is great and a few of it's scenes I downright love to death (all the krypton scenes, his first flight, the scene where Perry White and the bald guy rescue their co worker from the world breaker is down right magnificent and all the childhood scenes). It's just that Snyder didn't understand the concept of tension and release. A tense dramatic or action scene is supposed to be followed up by something to break the tension and let the audience catch their breath. Snyder didn't really follow this so by the time we got to the big finale with Zod and the world breaker the audience isn't invested anymore and instead of excited they are checking their watches waiting for the film to end. Also the obvious product placement ruined a couple scenes for me. An awesome fight shouldn't take place in an I hop of all places. Sorry for the rant! Even with all of it's faults though I still love the movie, for some reason I keep coming back to it over and over again.
RidiculousFanBoyDemands
RidiculousFanBoyDemands - 9/12/2014, 9:10 PM
And lees hulk I think was a great film minus the studio meddling (hulk dogs and final "boss fight"). As a film it has a lot of great ideas and I really feel like if lee had the type of control thAt Nolan had with batman he would have really blown us away. There are some great moments and shots in that movie, I really feel that movie was in some aspects was ahead of it's time. As a film it is heads and shoulders above the 2008 version, as a CBM, not so much.
RidiculousFanBoyDemands
RidiculousFanBoyDemands - 9/12/2014, 9:14 PM
The problem with man if steel was it was a Nolan story, but directed by Snyder. There were a lot of nuances to that script that Snyder wasn't able to fully realize. I don't blame foyer that much (aside from atrocious dialogue), but it was a story that only Nolam could have really done right. However I think BvS is going to be a million times better. Too many talented creative people working on it for it to shit the bed. Plus I really don't think affleck would have signed on if the script and everything wasn't impressive to him. He has the most to lose if this movie shits the bed.
RidiculousFanBoyDemands
RidiculousFanBoyDemands - 9/12/2014, 9:20 PM
I really think only Nolan can direct his stories, or at least a filmmaker with his talent (Fincher, Anderson, aronofski). I'm not saying Nolan is the greates filmmaker working today ( I have him 3rd) but I think only he knew how to handle the complexities of his non linear story and it was a case of Snyder being a bit overwhelmed and having to have Goyer simplify some aspects or in some instances completely gloss over important moments that a more talented story teller could have conveyed without missing a beat. I loved Man of Steel but it was trying to be a Nolan story with Snyder visuals which in hindsight didn't work as well as some would have hoped.
Alphadog
Alphadog - 9/13/2014, 1:51 AM
@ScottMontgomery @RidiculousFanBoyDemands @Nick Salinski How are Zack Snyder and Brett Ratner responsible for you complaints. To me it just seems like it's the writer's fault. Brett Ratner clearly didn't have much control over the movie and I sense that Zach didn't either.
Alphadog
Alphadog - 9/13/2014, 1:51 AM
I'm seriously asking you to explain why you think that way guys.
Pasto
Pasto - 9/13/2014, 3:21 AM
You lost me when you used The Amazing Spider-Man as a reference for how Man of Steel could've done something better. That's like using Hitler as a reference for how Obama could've done something better...

Just doesn't make sense.
MightyZeus
MightyZeus - 9/13/2014, 6:58 AM
Man of Steel has greatness through out the whole film.
ScottMontgomery
ScottMontgomery - 9/13/2014, 9:00 AM
@Alphadog
I didn't even mention Brett Ratner or X3... Plus in my comment I said I loved Man of Steel. Is it a perfect film? No. But I still love it with all it's flaws.
SauronsBANE
SauronsBANE - 9/13/2014, 9:40 AM
"...Ratner's direction just really screwed over audiences and the project."

The Last Stand really isn't Ratner's fault at all. He arrived so late in the game that he basically inherited ALL the major beats that Singer had left. Make no mistake, X3 is a Singer movie...but he doesn't get the blame because Ratner became the fall-guy.
SauronsBANE
SauronsBANE - 9/13/2014, 9:46 AM
Completely agree with Man of Steel...even though you lost me a bit when you used TASM 1 as an example of what Man of Steel should've done.

Still, the fact that the world's most famous, most beloved superhero couldn't even come close to cracking $1 billion shows that for the majority of folks, this movie was largely forgettable. But it absolutely had potential. I still hold to the fact that the 3rd trailer for MoS is still the best Superman movie I've ever seen, if that makes sense. It has heart, it has iconic moments, it has that "epic" feel to it...but sadly none of that ever translated to the film itself. Had Snyder surrounded himself with more competent writers who actually KNEW the character of Superman, MoS could've been an all-time classic. What a wasted opportunity.
SauronsBANE
SauronsBANE - 9/13/2014, 10:41 AM
@0megaDaGod I would definitely rank it up there among the greatest trailers I've ever seen. It's such a shame that it couldn't live up to expectations.

But then again, most trailers for Snyder movies end up looking GREAT anyway, regardless of how the actual movie turns out. So maybe we should've known better haha.
Alphadog
Alphadog - 9/13/2014, 11:14 AM
@ScottMontgomery When I said Brett Ratner I was talking about the article not you. I know that you said that you liked the film but you complained about Snyder not understanding the concept of tension and release but that seems targeted towars the script not what he did.
ThunderKat
ThunderKat - 9/13/2014, 12:00 PM
I am glad you can see the good in movies. All contemporary superhero movies have the potential for greatness (eg "Daredevil," "Constantine," and "Fantastic 4"). It is the execution and studio machinations that alter their course. The fourth Raimi Spider-Man may have wiped away the pain of '3.' It just means that the great ones are actually great ("Spider-Man 2" and "The Dark Knight") and the others are marginal to poor.
pesmerga44
pesmerga44 - 9/13/2014, 12:41 PM
@SauronsBane

I agree that Goyer's script is one of the biggest failings of that movie from the expositional dialogue, to plot holes or plot conveniences and just some bad scenes like Clark and Lois making out over ground zero or the hundred reasons why Clark should have saved the dog over John. Though I will also admit pairing him with Snyder was a bad decision because sorry Snyder is almost purely a visual director. His best works are Watchmen and 300 but both of those are almost purely shot scene for scene from the Comic books so he doesn't have to work as hard as with an original story like say Sucker Punch or Man of Steel. Snyder is like a more intelligent Michael Bay great visuals just minus all the eye candy(minus Sucker Punch) and low grade toilet humor. Pairing these two together was not a good decision because Goyer needs a strong director to work with to control him and Snyder needs a stronger script to make a better movie.

Look at Goyer's work history his good movies are Blade 1+2, and the Nolan Trilogy. All those movies he worked with Guillermo Del Toro and Christopher Nolan both great directors who easily can either help make his script better or can work around his issues. Now lets look at the films he did with not so good directors Blade Trinity, which he also directed, Ghost Rider 1+2, and Nick Fury Agent of Shield, yes the one with David Hasselhoff, and finally MOS he needs a better director to make his script better or to compensate for it. Hopefully with Ben Affleck on BVS he can help both Goyer and Snyder make a better film which it deserves to be.
Alphadog
Alphadog - 9/13/2014, 3:06 PM
@pesmerga44 What exactly do you think is the director's job?
Alphadog
Alphadog - 9/13/2014, 3:18 PM
You seem to have a pretty good understanding of pesmerga but I still don't think you should give any blame to Snyder when it comes to the screenplay. I really don't think he had much control over the movie and people don't seem to complain about the way he directed the actors but just about the story and the dialogue when he probably wasn't able to change those things.
pesmerga44
pesmerga44 - 9/13/2014, 3:26 PM
@Alphadog

To make the best movie possible and if that means making the script better then it is then that is his job. It can clearly be seen in Goyer's work specifically his good movies are Blade 1+2 and the Nolan Batman trilogy. There he works with great directors and in the bad movies he has written Blade Trinity, in which he directs the film, Ghost Rider 1+2, Nick Fury Agent of Shield, and Man of Steel he works with less talented directors the movies falter. Not saying though it is all Goyer's fault there is plenty that Snyder fails on with the movie too. His constant use of zooming throughout the movie and shaky cam even during conversations are tiresome by movies end.

A good director can make a lesser script better through how he directs the film. Hence my problem with this movie combining these two together was a bad decision because neither can bring out the best in each other. Hopefully Ben Affleck can come in and give these guys pointers on how to make a better film. Though in Goyer's case I doubt it since working with both Guillermo Del Toro and Christopher Nolan has done nothing to help with his writing I doubt working with Affleck will make him any better then he really is.
pesmerga44
pesmerga44 - 9/13/2014, 3:36 PM
@Alphadog

I would expect Snyder to have some common sense when directing this movie and see issues at least with a couple scenes. Like one being the infamous kissing scene with Clark and Lois kissing over ground zero as the ash covered survivors come crawling out of rubble. Unless he is so stuck to following the script where he has to showcase every scene he had to notice how bad of a scene it was just for the sake of how it makes the characters look.

Another scene is the tornado scene where you would have to ask why does John need to go save the dog. Throw in a small line or add something to the scene to make sense why John has to go save the dog. A simple little something to change the scene would be to have another person hit by some debris and knocked out forcing Clark to carry that man to the underpass because he is the only one who can carry him. Instead we are left with a scene where a man who is at least in his late 40's to early 50's running to a tornado to save the dog when his son in his 20's who he knows has superpowers and can easily rescue the dog. Any situation that comes up can easily be explained with the tornado picked up said debris be it a car or tree or whatever.
SteveBosell
SteveBosell - 9/13/2014, 7:50 PM
X3 is definitely not Ratner's fault.

Val Kilmer did an excellent job as Batman. I would have loved seeing him reprise the role in a more grounded take of Batman & Robin.

I really wish Spider-Man 4 had been made. John Malkovich would have made an awesome Vulture.
Alphadog
Alphadog - 9/14/2014, 2:01 AM
@pesmerga44 I don't have a problem with the kissing scene because it's about desperate end of the world, giving Clark hope through human attachement in that place. They should've worked a bit on that but it still doesn't bother me nor does the use of shaky cam or zooming because I can follow it just right and the former kind of has to do with the emotion and being confused or nervous and the latter makes the fight more stylistic and works with their powers. The tornado scene however proves you point. I now agree with you. Fortunately the script will probably be great because Goyer has some interesting ideas and Terrio is certain to make the best use of them. Snyder will make those scenes great and might even learn from Man of Steel.
pesmerga44
pesmerga44 - 9/14/2014, 6:58 AM
@Alphadog

When I am talking about the shaky cam I am more talking about during the conversations Snyder would use shaky cam. I don't need the camera shaking around while Clark and Lois are talking that was annoying. Using shaky cam during the fighting or the flying scenes didn't bother me. My issue with the zooming was that Snyder was using it like J.J. Abrams uses lens flare in Star Trek. He was using it all of the time during the movie.

I don't get all the praising for Terrio he has written Argo and Heights. I saw Argo which was good not sure that would make me an instant believer that that whatever he writes will be gold. I never saw Heights so I can't saw anything about that movie. I just don't get excited when actors in the movie praise the script because it has the taint of bias to is. It is highly unlikely that an actor or anyone working on the movie will openly come out and say before the movie is out the script sucks.

pesmerga44
pesmerga44 - 9/14/2014, 7:02 AM
@Alphadog

Also the kissing scene was less desperate end of the world kind of kiss and more end of the movie make out with the girl kiss. At that point they thought they defeated all the Kryptonians the main ship was sent to the Phantom Zone and Clark shot down Zod's ship so he thought he was dead. So to them it was their end of the movie make out then after they were done with that and their utterly stupid joke then Zod pops out from the wreckage.
Alphadog
Alphadog - 9/14/2014, 9:23 AM
@pesmerga44 We disagree on the shaky cam. I didn't find it distracting or confusing and liked it a lot when it was used in Smallville. I liked the effect that it caused of making the scenes even more down to earth. I also didn't think that there was anything special about Argo but that's exactly what Goyer needs. Goyer will probably make the plot interesting and Terrio will get rid of all the issues with it and write the characters well enough. Snyder can then go crazy with the movie. Goyer is there to make the story interesting enough and set up somethings, Terrio will make sure the script makes sense and the characters aren't badly written and Snyder will give life to the movie.
Alphadog
Alphadog - 9/14/2014, 9:32 AM
@ManCalledSting Bryan Singer for making Superman Returns and the producers for forcing the release date though we wouldn't have gotten Kelsey Grammer if Synger had stayed (Mathew Vaughn cast him after Synger left but Vaughn ended up leaving the project too obviously) and Ellen Page as Kitty Pryde (she was actually cast by Ratner) both of which I find perfect for the role even though they haven't had their chance to shine yet.
Alphadog
Alphadog - 9/15/2014, 5:10 AM
@ManCalledSting I believe that Raimi would've made a good movie if there was no studio interference yes. He apperantely wasn't pationate about the movie or about the villain. His other movies were art. A fan was making what he loved. Spiderman 3 wasn't. Bryan Singer on the other hand made Superman Returns like he wanted but it wasn't great. He also wanted to do X-men 3 but chose the wrong thing. The key word here is choices.
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