Terminator Salvation Gets a NEW Ending

This is fine by me, especially if fans are reacting better to the new ending...however, there has gotta be more reasons for changing the entire third act other than because it was leaked onto the internet...but cool beans, can't wait for this movie

Um,, i didn't know the first ending lol! Still, cool!

That's not very Professional!

yeah, i didn't know TS had a pervious ending, can any one shed some light on what it was?

this is what i found on www.moviesblog.mtv.com
"cut and paste"

"...in the ending, John Connor (played by Christian Bale) dies in a battle against a T-800, the same model famously portrayed by Arnold Schwarzenegger in the previous trilogy. With their leader dead, the resistance rip off Connor’s flesh and put it on Sam Worthington’s character, a human/terminator hybrid named Marcus Wright. In this version, John Connor would actually be a terminator in future installments of the franchise –meaning that the John Connor who sent his would-be daddy Kyle Reese back in time to protect and impregnate Sarah Connor was secretly a robot all along, thereby adding an entirely new spin on the original three “Terminator” flicks." end qoute

that is kind a cool ending, i like it when a "good line" story compeletly turns and ending like this. but seriouly, i would be !PISSED! Good thing thet are changing it. I do remember in T3 Anrold said something about JC allowing himself to died by the hands of T800 Anrold to get a turning point for the war. I didn't like that train of thought then and i still don't now.

Jeremybentham...

it doesn't work. he sends back his dad, who i'm guessing would be the same age as him, being a soldier and all. when was the dad born? so when the 'dad' was a glimmer in his daddy's eye, john conner was too. the only way it could work is if he sent back a soldier who turned out to be his uncle, or even who would father his brother, but not himself.

Frankie,
You are wrong about many things...

1) We don't know what year Kyle Reese was born. And yes, you are GUESSING that Kyle & John are the same age in the future. There is nothing to suggest this whatsoever and if it doesn't make sense that they would be the same age then guess what?-- they probably aren't! And since Kyle's D.O.B. is never officially revealed then it doesn't contradict anything.

2) You say about both being "a glimmer in the eye" at the same time... SO WHAT? Here's the flaw your point: you have to consider the Kyle Reese who arrived in 1984 from the future as a different being as the Kyle Reese as a child because they could both in theory exist at the same time if not for "future Kyle" being killed in 1984.

3) You obviously missed the entire irony of the "Terminator" story line: The Terminators and Skynet could never exist had it not been for the 1st T-800 being sent back in time and coincidentally being destroyed with the exception of its arm and CPU at Cyberdine Systems. Meanwhile, the man who would eventually lead the humans to victory over the machines could never exist if his father was never sent back in time to stop the machine. So the ultimate irony is that both Skynet's existence AND defeat were results of sending the first T-800 back in time so Skynet is therefore responsible for both its own existence and demise. Basically, the entire film is a paradox and this is acknowledged by James Cameron's writing in the films.

And this goes out to everyone, not just Frankie,

I've said this before and I'll say it again: "T3" is being wiped out of existence so don't acknowledge it. From everything I've read and from what "The Sarah Connor Chronicles" has done, the timeline has changed. Just forget about it. It was HORRIBLE. Period. And I'm the biggest "Terminator" fan alive so I can say that it was trash with credibility. Now this could have been changed in the re-writing too, I suppose, but everything I've read and heard over the past couple years says this to be true.

And to state my opinion on "Terminator: Salvation"... I think this movie is going to be F@#$ing excellent. When "T3" was coming out I thought that it looked horrible but lied to myself and tried to believe that it looked good. However, I honestly believe that this movie looks to be the next major installment of this franchise that we've been waiting for and I cannot wait.

@ frankiepoo5,

Here's a link for the time line for everything....

http://terminator.wikia.com/wiki/Terminator:_Sarah_Connor_Chronicles_(timeline)

For this convo about John & his father, the only time line issues they have are:


Kyle Reese's birth:

Events in "What He Beheld" establish a different birthdate in for Kyle Reese from that established in The Terminator as 2008. As shown in Derek's flash-forward to the SCC Judgment Day placing him at age 8, and stating in the SCC "present" he is age 5, the revised birthdate must be in 2002

And Kyle's Mission:

Kyle Reese in The Terminator reveals to Sarah that he came from the year 2029. As shown in Derek Reese's flash forward/flash back seen in Dungeons & Dragons, it reveals he was sent back in the year 2027, two years before what the movie states. This is probably due to his and Sarah's efforts to prevent Judgement Day.

The differences in the dates may be explained a few different ways: Either the timeline was altered due to the events of Terminator 2: Judgment Day, or the writers of TSCC failed to take into account the two years that Kyle spent in Recon/Security directly under Connor (2027-2029), after his tenure with Perry (2021-2027).

I'm excited for Terminator: Salvation. We have to remember, though, that we're talking about a franchise that's all about time travel. Whatever timeline is established by THIS movie or THAT tv show can always be changed in an instant by more time travel.


I liked T3, for the most part. I didn't like Danes or Stahl (both are waaayyy too exasperated all the time) but I thought the story and effects were pretty solid. A few too many self-referential jokes, maybe. Especially that "you remind me of my mother" thing toward the end. Ack. Overall, though, I dug it. I liked the T-X... good robot solution to the shortcomings and skills of both the T-800 and the T-1000.

I also like the tv show. The Terminator world is such a fun story playground and I think the show remains respectful of the idea even if it doesn't really play as well in the same "universe". I have never thought of it as canon, though, only highly-enjoyable variations on the Terminator theme. Just like Superman comics versus movies versus tv shows versus etc.

No one can serve the original intention of the original story but James Cameron. That doesn't mean the rest of us can't play in the sandbox he built. Either way... cool robots, confusing web of time-travel plotlines, and women kicking butt? I'm IN!!!

metalhead,
amen brother!

If anyone here would like to see how "T3" SHOULD HAVE went then I STRONGLY recommend picking up the miniserieses "Terminator 2 Judgment Day Cybernetic Dawn" and "Terminator 2 Judgment Day Nuclear Twilight" by Malibu Comics, which follow the first 2 films and storylines very well. These 2 serieses are excellent. Pick them up and I can assure you that you won't be disappointed. Personally I was amazed at how well they were done.

Dude I haven't missed a single episode of "The Sarah Connor Chronicles" first off so don't go mouthing off to me about that. Second, all of your justifications are total trash just to try to make this movie sound even remotely watchable and not what it really was-- A MOVIE MADE FOR THE MONEY! (If you want to debate me then I'm fine with a friendly debate but there's no need for the jabs about me not watching the show when that is completely incorrect.)

Now a few things:
1) I never said that it didn't make sense that the T-X would have the ability to bring weapons back, I said that it was stupid for a few reasons; one being that they should have sent THAT Terminator back in the first place and the other being that it just isn't a fair fight for we, the viewers, to really believe could be won. And Skynet calculates its highest probablity for success. Don't you think if it had that model available then it would have sent it back to 1984 or 1994?

On a side note I have always had a solution to sending future weapons back in time: COVER THEM IN LIVING TISSUE! There's no reason that it would be any different than sending a Terminator back since neither are living creatures under the flesh.

2) NO, we CAN'T assume that John told ANYONE in the future about the other timeline because IF he is telling it to someone then it means that the other timeline NEVER HAPPENED so therefore JOHN would not know about it either. In theory if a timeline does not happen then there can be NO remaining proof of it, such as John's existence, Skynet's existence, John's knowledge of an alterate timeline, etc. Changing the timeline while having the T-800 and John exist is flat-out stupid. And another problem with that is that the T-800 sent to protect John never would have went back and therefore the T-850 wouldn't have known about John's boyhood attachment with it. TONS of problems with changing the timeline-- and unjustifiable ones at that.

3) Your argument that Skynet knows more about Sarah Connor has a MAJOR flaw: IF Skynet knew specific times she was at a hospital, police station, etc., then they would have sent a Terminator to that exact moment. Reese said it in the first film-- their records were all destroyed. And until that moment when Skynet had lost there was no way that it knew that it needed to kill John or Sarah Connor, otherwise it would have done so prior to being a last-ditch effort to keep the humans from winning.

Think about it like this: IF Skynet knew all along that John Connor would need to be killed then why would it wait until a few moments before being completely wiped out? The answer: it wouldn't. Skynet is a super-intelligent computer system that would have strategically destroyed John Connor years in advance had it realized that John would eventually be its demise. The point of all of this is that IF Skynet had Sarah's (and John's) blood type, dates & times she was at hospitals, information on the time she spent at Pescadero, etc., then it would have sent the first Terminator back to one of those specific times and would have been successful, rather than sending it back to a random time it knew that she existed in (1984) in hopes to be successful.

Not to mention that IF it had more information about her it probably would have sent it back to either kill HER parents or to when SHE was an infant as opposed to even targeting John.

Now I'm with you that changing any tiny event in the past alters the future and I already stated that when I referenced "The Butterfly Effect"/"Chaos Theory." So according to that it's easy to disprove any of this but for the sake of the story I'll argue/believe that the changes made in the past are the correct ones to lead them to this future.

I'm telling you, read those comic book serieses I mentioned. They are excellent, true to the timeline, make sense of unanswered questions AND make sense for Judgment Day still taking place on August 29, 1997 even though their actions in "T2" should have stopped it by their logic. You can find them on eBay or all over the place on the Internet. Read those (seriously, do it-- if you really are a fan then you'll definitely enjoy them), then watch "T3" and try to tell me which story should've been used for "T3" and which should've ended up in the trash.

Metalhead -

I didn't mean to offend you.

I misread your earlier statement where you said, "From everything I've read and from what 'The Sarah Connor Chronicles' has done, the timeline has changed."

I took that to mean you hadn't seen the show, only read about it. My statement about watching the show was really meant as a sincere recommendation, not a jab. I really dig it and thought you might, too, though I admit I was puzzled that a fan like you wasn't wathcing out of sheer curiosity. I'm truly sorry that you took it wrong and I'm glad you are enjoying the show as much as I am.

I'm not here to antagonize, and I'm enjoying our discussion.

I had just finished a nice long rebuttal to our T-3 discussion but I seem to have just lost it to the digital ether. Connection timed out or something and I had to log in again and it was all gone.

I don't feel like writing ALL of it over again at the moment, having just lost it to the digital ether. To quote Legolas, "For me the grief is still too near."

I do have some more points to make about T-3, and some questions about T-2 that maybe you can help me sort out.

I will check out the comics. Thanks for the recommendation and for the discussion.

"I'll be back."

Seth Asa

Thanks for understanding. Continued:

Even though you don't like T-3, go with me on this for a second. Assuming all movie events are true:

Terminator 1 established the following:
) Sarah Connor is the mother of John Connor
) Kyle Reese was sent by John to protect Sarah Connor
) Kyle Reese ended up as the father of John Connor
) Kyle Reese and the T-800 were sent through the time field before the facility was destroyed
) only organic matter can pass through the time field
) all records were lost in the war
) the T-800 left remains in the machine shop
) Skynet is in control, Cyberdyne Systems manufactures the robots

Terminator 2 established the following:
) Sarah Connor in lunatic asylum
) John Connor in foster care system, multiple father figures
) either the facility wasn't destroyed after reese and the T-800 passed through the time field, or time facilities were repaired/rebuilt to allow the T-101 and T-1000 to travel through time
) the T-101 is able to "learn'
) the infiltration prototype T-1000 is inorganic and passed through the time field
) Cyberdyne Systems was making technological advancements based on the remains of the T-800, which would eventually lead to the creation of Skynet as protection for the United States
) Cyberdyne was and all it's research destroyed by Sarah and John Connor
) the original remains of the T-800, and the new T-101, were destroyed in the smelting pool
) the T-101 lost an arm during the battle with the T-1000 and it was never accounted for

Terminator 3 (would) establish the following:
) John Connor has been on the run and off the grid, not necessarily training to do anything now that judgement day has been "stopped"
) the time facility is still active, or has once again been destroyed and rebuilt, and can once again allow inorganic matter to pass through the time field
) the T-850 has knowledge of prior events
) the T-X is part liquid metal and part machine, is weapon-equipped, can network with other computer systems, and uses liquid metal for infiltration
) Skynet is developed by the government as an advanced protection system against network viruses and hackers in a military research facility
) John Connor was killed by a T-800, chosen to use his boyhood experiences as a means to get close to him and was reprogrammed by his future wife

In this timeline, each time jump brings a slightly more well-developed terminator from the machine's side. The resistance sends a Terminator of their own, which means that somewhere along the way they have learned how to reprogram them. Then they send another reprogrammed Terminator of the same model. Since neither side has sent their machine to the same date more than once, we might also believe that either A) the time facility can only transport within a certain timeline frame and there were three separate time travel inicidents after the events of T-1 and T-2, respectively; B) the battle that supposed to have destroyed the facility happened differently or in different locations after the events of both T-1 and T-2, respectively; C) John Connor has led the resistance differently after both T-1 and T-2, respectively; D) the time technology changes after the events of both T-1 and T-2, respectively.

After the events of T-1, the machines have knowlege that John and Sarah are both in L.A. at a certain time. After the events of T-2, the machines still take over (but at a later date) and have knowlege that John's lieutenants are in L.A. at a certain time and that Sarah Connor is dead.

It would seem that each time jump creates a pattern of things getting better for the machines and worse for the resistance. It would also seem that each time jump presents a more advanced terminator and better time travel technology. It seems both sides have more information. It seems they have access to different technology. In The machines have better techology and the resistence has older, or the same, techology.

If artificial intelligence is created in 1997 it has, at least/most the capabilities and considerations of 1997 technology. If artificial technology is created in 2003 it has, at least/most the capabilities and considerations of 2003.

This all would mean that either A) Reese actually didn't know the outcome of the time facililty battle, or the war, but only percieved them a certain way before his timejump; B) Reese being John Connor's father was not part of the original timeline and this change affected future John's command abilities; C) the T-101's missing arm (T-2) was found and used for the same research but the results of the research were set back a few years, ultimately creating a more capable wartime machine force; or D) Cyberdyne's research and development program would have delivered the machines and Skynet to the US Government in or around 1997 (or maybe already had); E) Cyberdyne deing destroyed caused the Government to build different war machines but continue developing Skynet as software. Dyson's Cyberdyne led to the creation of Skynet, created to defend the United States. So let's say the US Government was into Dyson's research. They do tend to know what people are working on.

I can see all of this working together. Each timejump creates a new situation but because of the paradox of time travel (someone having a need to create it in order for it to be created) the fate of a machine/human war can't be avoided. It is also safe to assume that if John Connor didn't lead the resistance, someone else would... humans don't die without a fight. John is certainly better-informed about the machines than anyone else but others could certainly organize to battle the machines. Johns involvement and his experiences, are disseminated amongst his officers, including his wife, in order to help them understand the machines well enough to combat them without his direct involvement in multiple places at the same time.

Let's say the T-800 hadn't come through. Perhaps the machine war would still happen but would play out differently. We have assumed that having the T-800's arm caused the research that led to Skynet and the Terminator series. But what if that isn't true? What if Cyberdyne still created artificial intelligence and advanced robotics (not Terminator-level advanced but advanced enough to make war) and the war still occurred... but the Terminator cybernetics line was slower to develop.

This would mean that the T-800's arm doesn't cause the war but only advances the speed of development of the Terminator line. This would also mean that after Cyberdyne is destroyed, the Terminator line of the future is built somewhat differently, i.e., that machines in the government facility instead of whatever Cyberdyne would have developed.

If you can stand to watch T-3 again, pay more attention to the network use by the T-X and the dialogue of the Claire Danes' character's father. It really stands in line with the basic premise of an artificial intelligence taking control. What I find good about the movie is not John Connor or the wife thing. It's how Skynet is still created to defend the government and is still able to take control, but this time with access to massive amounts of sensitive information. Now Skynet is not an uninformed enemy.

Of course I realize that these are most of the items you take issue with in the timeline but I really see it all working together, even with the new movie. The development of more advanced and different Terminators, based on a different path of development.

QUESTIONS ABOUT T-2:
How does the T-1000 make it through the time field (and, by proxy, the T-X)?

How does the door to Sarah Connor's rubber room get opened? It would seem that her hallucination of Reese opens the door for her.

Rock On...!

Seth Asa

Also, don't forget to check out those 2 comic book serieses. The way they set up a timeline for the events in the future was done really well and helps to imagine how it would have likely went in a way that makes a lot of sense and answers a lot of questions as to how it could have worked/been possible.

And good work on finding things to prove your points. Whether or not I agree with them or like the ideas (defending "T3") is a different story but at least you are putting in the effort to back your ideas/thoughts/opinions/etc.

I agree wholly about the rush job. Especially in the casting. Stahl and Danes were atrocious. And Arnold did look a bit old, hence why they shot him from the pecs-up during the arrival-and-acquisition-of-clothing scenes.

I think what I enjoy about T3 is the cool concepts. I like to think about them and incorporate them into my understanding of the Terminator series. And I really would have liked to see the movie centered around the creation of Skynet. For me, Robert Brewster was the only sympathetic character in the movie.

T3 is a so-so movie that, I believe, had all the potential elements of a really great movie but the director and writers were too busy being campy. Which, in a way, builds on some of the feel of T2... a super movie but certainly more relaxed and softer than the original film. The "Bad to the Bone" sound que when Arnold walks out of the bar in leather TOTALLY gave away who the protagonist was. Either Terminator could have killed a cop on arrival but the one with the funny entrance music couldn't be the antagonist.

I'm really looking forward to the new movie(s) although I'm not too keen on this whole skin-switching thing that might show up later on. It looks like, overall, these new films will be well-thought-out. I think they'll be great action movies but also a great design representation of the Terminator series and the possible future it represents.

I still don't understand how the T-1000 could pass through the time field. Is this something addressed by the comics you mentioned?

It's true about the skin-switching thing... if they do it, it will really depend on how they do it. Can't help but be a little wary but I'll wait and see.

We know that inorganic material can't pass through the time field because everyone always shows up naked.

I could maybe accept the idea that organic cells were incorporated into the liquid metal and that's what we see on the outside when it mimics a human but I can't see how those cells would survive. Hmmm...

I found yet another MAJOR flaw with "T3." I'd like to point out that ALL of the major flaws are results of the writers trying to put in shocking tidbits or adding new aspects to the storyline that weren't necessary other than to give the movie some freshness. (For example: the postponing of Judgment Day and yet John still exists, the T-X being able to remotely control cars that don't have that capability, the T-850 knowing about an alternate timeline that it would have no knowledge of as long as it existed, etc.) SOOOO....

Early in the movie we see a clip of John in the future after the Resistance has won the war. Now, granted, this could be a dream or it could be an "actual" shot of the future, but that's irrelevant. Later on we find out that this T-850 kills John in the future. We also find out that it was then captured and reprogrammed by Kate Brewster. We know that this unit is sent out by Skynet to terminate John because of John's boyhood attachment with it. PROBLEM: If John is killed by this model-- who was sent by Skynet to kill him-- then that means that the war doesn't end before John dies!

Now, onto the next problem which this creates... Kyle Reese says that they had defeated Skynet and won the war. So let's create a timeline of the events leading up to Kyle's travel back to 1984:

-John, Kyle and the Resistance defeat Skynet.
-Kyle knows that Skynet is defeated.
-John sends Kyle back to 1984.
-John dies at any irrelevant time after Kyle passes through.

NOW, how can John die BEFORE defeating Skynet and therefore BEFORE sending Kyle back to 1984? Now not only does John not live to see Skynet's defeat, he also doesn't live to send Kyle back to 1984 and therefore never exists. This movie is just loaded with serious F-ups that are largely in part due to (a) lack of indepth thinking and (b) getting into details for the sake of shock value that officially contradict specific truths to the story.

Yeah... seeing John as the victor of the war when he doesn't survive to see the end... that's a biggie. Not to mention that even with the gray makeup he still looks like a 24 year old. My best guess is that he was projecting that image of himself onto his understanding of the future.

I have been making my way through the original movie while simultaneously being sick and trying to clean the basement. Kyle says the Terminator is a model T-101. I guess the T-101 is part of the 800 series...? If so, I finally understand the difference in the call signs.

Sarah originally had a date with someone who ended up cancelling the night she began running. Maybe that was John Connor's future father until Kyle showed up.

Also, when Kyle is describing the future to Sarah at the beginning (hunched in a car in a parking garage), he calls it "one possible future."

So we have to establish a few rules about time travel and timelines. It's my understanding that each timeline is singular unto itself. Thus, if a Terminator jumps back in time, it's actions don't affect the timeline from which it was sent but a new timeline is developed instead. This is why the events of T2 don't change everything and why the Terminators didn't just disappear when Cyberdyne was destroyed. They were left in a new timeline. This is partially why I think each time jump creates a new timeline and the events of T3 (ill-conceived as the script may be) are still workable.

Thus, I'm willing to accept that something changed enough to allow liquid metal through but not formed metal, or that the liquid metal has some meager organic properties.

This also solves the other problem: by virtue of the argument that Skynet sent the first Terminator as a last-ditch effort before it was defeated, there couldn't have been any more Terminators sent through time at all and T-2 would be as irrelevant in mythos as T-3, both having disproved that story. But with each timeline as a new one, both are possible.

The T-850 was programmed to take Kate and John to the Nevada desert. I figured the Kate from it's timeline survived in that manner and met John in the Resistance later on instead of in the T1-altered timeline or the T2-altered timeline. Crystal Peak was a change to the timeline.

And, since the timeline has changed and judgement day is postponed, maybe the conclusion of the war was also postponed. Kyle was sent back from 2029. The Terminator kills him in 2032. Another possibility is a "resistance" of machines, not controlled by Skynet, post-war after 2029. I prefer the continually-altered timeline theory better, though.