George R.R. Martin On Why There's Violence Against Women On GAME OF THRONES

George R.R. Martin On Why There's Violence Against Women On GAME OF THRONES

The rape of Sansa Stark on a recent episode of HBO's Game Of Thrones caused quite a stir, and it wasn't the first time the horrific treatment of a female character on the show received backlash. Now, in an interview with Entertainment Weekly, author George R.R. Martin responds...

By MarkCassidy - Jun 07, 2015 07:06 AM EST
Filed Under: Game of Thrones
Source: Via EW
Westeros is not a very nice place if you happen to be a woman. It's not a particularly nice place for men either, but the fact remains that in the patriarchal society depicted in HBO's Game Of Thrones and the source novels, the ladies tend to get the grimmest time of it.



Over the course of 5 seasons there have been several instances of sexual violence that stirred up controversy, and the most recent - the rape of Sansa stark by Ramsay Bolton - prompted many fans to claim they were "done" with the show altogether. One of the main issues stemmed from this being yet another example of the showrunners adding a rape scene that didn't occur in the books (at least, not to that particular character), and given what Sansa had already been through prior to that it just proved too much for some to take.

Of course, it's fiction - but as George R.R. Martin explains below, it is also supposed to be an accurate depiction of life in the Middle Ages... just with, y'know, dragons and stuff.

“The books reflect a patriarchal society based on the Middle Ages. The Middle Ages were not a time of sexual egalitarianism. It was very classist, dividing people into three classes. And they had strong ideas about the roles of women. One of the charges against Joan of Arc that got her burned at the stake was that she wore men’s clothing—that was not a small thing. There were, of course, some strong and competent women. It still doesn’t change the nature of the society. And if you look at the books, my heroes and viewpoint characters are all misfits. They’re outliers. They don’t fit the roles society has for them. They’re ‘cripples, bastards, and broken things‘—a dwarf, a fat guy who can’t fight, a bastard, and women who don’t fit comfortably into the roles society has for them (though there are also those who do—like Sansa and Catelyn).

“Now there are people who will say to that, ‘Well, he’s not writing history, he’s writing fantasy—he put in dragons, he should have made an egalitarian society.’ Just because you put in dragons doesn’t mean you can put in anything you want. If pigs could fly, then that’s your book. But that doesn’t mean you also want people walking on their hands instead of their feet. If you’re going to do [a fantasy element], it’s best to only do one of them, or a few. I wanted my books to be strongly grounded in history and to show what medieval society was like, and I was also reacting to a lot of fantasy fiction. Most stories depict what I call the ‘Disneyland Middle Ages’—there are princes and princesses and knights in shining armor, but they didn’t want to show what those societies meant and how they functioned.

“I have millions of women readers who love the books, who come up to me and tell me they love the female characters. Some love Arya, some love Dany, some love Sansa, some love Brienne, some love Cersei—there’s thousands of women who love Cersei despite her obvious flaws. It’s a complicated argument. To be non-sexist, does that mean you need to portray an egalitarian society? That’s not in our history; it’s something for science fiction. And 21st century America isn’t egalitarian, either. There are still barriers against women. It’s better than what it was. It’s not Mad Men any more, which was in my lifetime.

“And then there’s the whole issue of sexual violence, which I’ve been criticized for as well. I’m writing about war, which what almost all epic fantasy is about. But if you’re going to write about war, and you just want to include all the cool battles and heroes killing a lot of orcs and things like that and you don’t portray [sexual violence], then there’s something fundamentally dishonest about that. Rape, unfortunately, is still a part of war today. It’s not a strong testament to the human race, but I don’t think we should pretend it doesn’t exist.

“I want to portray struggle. Drama comes out of conflict. If you portray a utopia, then you probably wrote a pretty boring book.”


What do you guys think? Are you satisfied with Martin's explanation, or do you think a fantasy series should tame down the realism? Perhaps you feel the whole thing was blown out of proportion in the first place. Sound off below.
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DerekLake
DerekLake - 6/7/2015, 8:13 AM
He makes some pretty good points here. And if it's not glamorized, glossed over, or trivialized, but given appropriate treatment, then I don't think it's a bad thing. A lot of people want squeaky-clean, safe escapism, but the world's messy and ugly, and fiction that deals with some of that reality tends to soar above that which doesn't.
DrKinsolving
DrKinsolving - 6/7/2015, 8:14 AM
Definitely good points, totally agree
kirklazarus87
kirklazarus87 - 6/7/2015, 8:16 AM
So the Middle Ages weren't about sunflowers and daisies?
Nivekian
Nivekian - 6/7/2015, 8:17 AM
To be honest, most of the complaints sound like they were coming from bandwagon people embarrassingly unfamiliar with the show. Had a person tell me that what happened to Sansa was the worst thing they seen since season 1, and it's like "Really"? Hyperbole is bad enough, doing it with Game of Thrones is laughable.
BigFoster
BigFoster - 6/7/2015, 8:19 AM
@Pointman i think you missed the point...man
speedyg33
speedyg33 - 6/7/2015, 8:22 AM
I do agree with him. Unfortunately the show is not on par with his books and I suspect a lot of the outcry is complaining from the show viewers. For many this may only be their second venture into this genre, LOTR being their first.
legopieface
legopieface - 6/7/2015, 8:23 AM
Way to spoil it in the Article description douche bag.
MisterHolmes
MisterHolmes - 6/7/2015, 8:24 AM
the people who complain about women violence in GoT are the same people who complain about blood in TWD. Morons just dont understand that every show cant be a Dr. Seuss book!
01928401
01928401 - 6/7/2015, 8:26 AM
I don't think he even has to explain himself. It's his story, his world. If he wants to portray a rape scene against a woman, he can. If you don't want to watch it, don't. But don't quit watching it and try to announce why. No one should give a shit. Unfortunately, all these [frick]heads keep coming around demanding an explanation or an apology. Same thing goes with why Trank and Disney parted ways or why Statham isn't joining the Daredevil cast or whatever. All you people just have to know why so you can bad-mouth the "greater evil."
James99201
James99201 - 6/7/2015, 8:27 AM
Smart, Smart man. I guess thats why he has wrote one of the most novel series ever!
LastOfKrypton
LastOfKrypton - 6/7/2015, 8:30 AM
Women and their victim mentality......



Anyway

speedyg33
speedyg33 - 6/7/2015, 8:33 AM
It's the genre. Not just Martin. Like he said this isn't a Disney story.
Enki
Enki - 6/7/2015, 8:36 AM
If people want sugar coated politically correct fantasy, they need to go somewhere else.
13echo
13echo - 6/7/2015, 8:39 AM
Two things I won't tolerate when watching a show is rape and castration and yet I cannot walk away from this show.
Mindbombable
Mindbombable - 6/7/2015, 8:39 AM
What's lazy is the moronic, diatribes about the affect TV dramas have on peoples lives. Off the soapbox, off the couch, and away from the computer is a world full of REAL LIFE atrocities one can rage against.

Fearful scribes will never produce topical dialogue about taboo subjects.

ignore it. ignore it. It doesn't exist today. It made me uncomfortable in front of friends and family Mommy. Can't we hide everything as if it was the '50s? Bill Cosby didn't do that, NOoooooooooooooooooooooo!
ekrolo2
ekrolo2 - 6/7/2015, 8:41 AM
Really telling about the state of peoples mentality when you have to explain to them "Hey guys, people were [frick]ing assholes in Middle Ages!". Seriously, is this some by-product of America's piss poor history lessons or are people willingly forgetting facts just so they have a reason to bitch?
ShelfPorn
ShelfPorn - 6/7/2015, 8:46 AM
College is a good example where girls are raped on a nightly basis and everyone pretends it never happened and we as a society are fine with it. Maybe Game of Thrones should be more like College.
ComicFan523
ComicFan523 - 6/7/2015, 8:50 AM
It's all about preferences, if you don't like the amount of violence on this show don't watch it. I like Game of Thrones but I do find that sometimes it seems like the violence is a little gratuitous, violence for the sake of violence. That being said, I tolerate it because I want to find out what happens next. Frankly I don't think the show would be as successful if it was less violent.
speedyg33
speedyg33 - 6/7/2015, 8:53 AM
Forget history, The horrific things happening to women in Africa and the Middle East right now. But lets show out anger and outrage against a TV show, and a novels of fiction.
NovaCorpsFan
NovaCorpsFan - 6/7/2015, 8:56 AM
@pointman
Nobody's defending rape. @Larbone's defending people's right to put a message across by any means they see fit, and if rape is a way of putting across that message and making people realise how things were and still are in our society, then so be it. If you're offended by it, or you dislike that mode of thinking, then you're fully entitled to disagree but come up with a better argument beyond finding it wrong.
Klone
Klone - 6/7/2015, 9:00 AM
He's talking about the books, so it's why A Song of Ice and Fire have violence against them, NOT Game of Thrones. And anyhow, Tywin's Crimson Terror by razing the Riverlands and enslaving the smallfolk for service at Harrenhal in ACoK was far more horrific than any rape in the series.
CavalierTunes
CavalierTunes - 6/7/2015, 9:03 AM
I think George R. R. Martin is 100% correct about what he said above. Portraying an idealized society isn't true to reality.

I understand why some people are upset about Sansa's rape though. There are more than a few rape scenes in the show that DIDN'T happen in the books to women, however, the race scenes against men are taken out. And, I agree, that is wrong. If they cut out Theon being raped, I'm fine with that. If they turn a consensual sex scene in the books, into Cersei being raped on the show, I'm fine with that. But when both happen, it seems excessive and one-sided; as if raping a woman is just part of the show, and raping a man is something that shouldn't be shown. But that's not George R. R. Martin's fault: that's the show runners'.

Also, for the record, calling someone an "SJW" because you disagree with their opinion makes you look really stupid. Remember for every "SJW" there's an "MRA-hole."
Klone
Klone - 6/7/2015, 9:04 AM
@pointman

Hardly. He depicts a war that leaves every region except Dorne scarred in some capacity. Rape is apart of it as much as mass murder and the razings, etc. And in case of Jeyne Poole, it worked for many reasons whereas Sansa's rape was [frick]ing stupid from a storytelling perspective.

Frankly, I get sick of agenda driven complaints against rape. Attack it in relation to being poorly written. Reminds me of the hell over that Joker cover because some thought in alluded to rape. So what? Same with Jaime/Cersei last year. As stupid as it was it made some sense given their own rewriting of Cersei in sense yet still agenda driven trite led against it. Now if they were attacking their faithlessness to the characters from GRRM's it'd be fine. But they weren't.
AbhiShake
AbhiShake - 6/7/2015, 9:05 AM
Very smart writer, he gets the society and human behaviour, good or bad perfectly. SoIaF/GoT might be a fantasy but it reflects real society in history and to some extent present times. I have nothing but respect for the man and everybody likes him too, except few butthurts.

01928401
01928401 - 6/7/2015, 9:05 AM
@pointman
Says the guy with a Punisher avatar. Enlighten us on why brutal violence is in any way more acceptable than rape.
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