ECHO: Marvel Studios Head Writer Discusses The Upcoming Project

@DocSpock - Hawkeye is fart away from being the worst MCU project of Phase 4, this side of Eternal's large intestine.



This Echo show sounds like a dumpster fire too. When the writer basically says EH? Meh in an interview, that's usually a red flag.

@Amaru - uh buddy. She just came out and said deadlines, woulda done it differently.

@Amaru - delusions of grandeur

@StSteven -
Nah, it's just a matter of only a tiny portion of the audience knowing who Echo is an even smaller percentage of the audience caring enough about her to want a spin-off series focused on her. They know Daredevil is the main commodity that people want so similar to She-Hulk will use Daredevil as a reason for people to check out the show, even though he'll probably appear for a limited amount of time and likely in a penultimate or final episode.

As for the 'quantity over quality' changing to focus more on 'quality', that will not happen until at least mid/late 2025 - anything that was in production or filming is not magically going to suddenly shift to quality story telling material and they need to get past the mess left from the previous installments which will linger. I also don't have much faith in the idea that it was just because they produced more that the quality sucked, no, the problem is that they had no care for the story of the products they were making, that won't change if they make less of them.

Also, blaming Bob Chapek is not entirely accurate - this show is one of the many approved by Feige that was demonstrating his direction of 'having more female heroes than male heroes'

@Scarilian - Nope. Nope, nope, nopety-nope. Your opinions don't align exactly with mine and therefore are complete rubbish, and I will hear no more of your ignorant drivel. Good day, sir. I say, good day! 😉

Seriously, although you are generally more critical of the MCU than I am, I agree with a number of your points, but I'll work from the bottom up (BTW this is a rather long read so if you're short of time you can skip to the TL;DR at the bottom):

First off, I don't know how things really went down behind the scenes at Disney and Marvel so my thoughts on this are just really my opinions based on everything I've read here and other places, but I agree that it wasn't solely Bob Chapek who was responsible for how Phase 4 turned out. I think it was a number of factors with a lot of it due to COVID affecting production schedules and such with the different projects being developed semi-autonomously, etc. BUT I think the other main contributing factor was the launch of D+ and the need for it to be successful despite the lack of new content to bring in new viewers.

Enter Bob Chapek. My guess (although I don't actually know) is that with Marvel being arguably Disney's hottest property right now, Bob's dictum to Kevin was something along the lines of "I want a new Marvel project out every other month, and I don't care which ones. That's up to you", hence the reports that we've seen about Kevin & Co. being stretched really thin, which along with the above COVID considerations is likely what led to the variations in quality that we've seen and the aforementioned lessening connectivity along with the shear amount of content that's come out in such a short amount of time. I mean honestly Kevin couldn't possibly have read every script for every project, then offered feedback, etc. He likely had to put a lot of faith in the other producers if for nothing other than his own sanity.

That being said, with Kevin being President AND Chief Creative Officer of Marvel, even if the amount of Marvel content wasn't up to him, the content itself was, in as far as which new characters to introduce, whose stories to continue, and what format to present it in.
And although I don't know him personally, Kevin seems like a pretty "make the best of the situation" kind of guy, so he probably saw this whole situation as a way to (1) deal with the repercussions of the "IS" and wrap that up, (2) Introduce a bunch of new characters to the MCU that they're going to need for Phases 5 &6 (especially with "A:SW"), and (3) get the story lines set up for Phases 5 & 6 (especially "A:SW"). So I don't fault him for how he handled a situation which was a potential disaster from the beginning, given all of the above elements at play.

Regarding your comment about Feige had a direction of more female heroes than male heroes, the whole idea of more inclusion, representation, and diversity in Marvel (and every other Disney property) didn't originate with Feige. Given the world in which we currently live in, all major entertainment brands are making an effort in the space and so my guess is that the direction for all that didn't come from Kevin, or Bob, but from the Mouse himself. Kevin is just trying to do his best to "check off the boxes" of the card of boxes he was given. That's not to say that Kevin & Co. at Marvel don't want more diversity in their characters and their stories, and I've personally enjoyed their various efforts, and I think they would have done it anyway even without what was likely an edict from the Mouse on High. I mean, hell, I think that I learned more about the Muslim and Pakistani culture from watching "Ms. Marvel" than I ever have from having Muslim and Pakistani friends. I guess sometimes you just need to get the information in front of people in a medium that they can easily consume and enjoy, and I think that Marvel is doing a great job of that, whether it be culture, mental illness, etc. And to be perfectly honest, look, I loves me some Cap ("CA:WS" is one of my most favorite MCU movies, like most folks), but if I had to watch 25 movies of "a strong white guy punching another strong white guy" I would have tuned out a long time ago. So, yes, while Kevin is having to check off those boxes, I think that he's honestly trying to do it in a way that would be the most entertaining to us as fans (he's a fan as well).

Which brings me to your assessment of "Echo". You are absolutely correct that Echo is a relatively unknown character to the GA and aside from the "checking boxes" bullshit, when you're introducing ANY new character to the mainstream in their own show, it makes perfect sense to include high profile characters (i.e. DD & Kingpin) to bring in viewers that might not be otherwise interested in Echo herself but want to see those other characters, with the hope being that they will find something to like about the new character (Echo) and present them in a way that fans will want to see more of them, and I don't think that Marvel would deny that. Personally, I liked Echo well enough in "Hawkeye", she seemed like an interesting character that I wouldn't mind seeing more of, but if I'm being honest, the inclusion of DD and KP in that show really moves the needle for me on my "must watch shows" list, which is the obvious intent (as well as setting up "DD:BA". You can't fault them for doing that.

Finally I'll address your assertion that we won't see the MCU get back to "quality or quantity" until mid/late 2025. My short answer is "Eh, I don't that it's going to take that long, but we'll just have to wait and see". Here's the longer version: my guess is (just a guess) that Kevin wasn't particularly happy with Chapek's (or whomever's) mandate to start turning out Marvel content like a Chili's instead of the more Lawry's Steakhouse content that they had been doing prior to Phase 4, not to mention all the toll that it was likely taking on him and his team. So when the word came down that they were going to slow things down a bit, refocus, and revamp their Plans for Phases 5 and 6, he was probably pretty relieved and got his team together to revamp their plans.

So with that in mind, my guess is that Kevin looked at what was already in production and how long, what was already in the can, and to determine what needed to stay for the service of the Multiverse Saga story that they were telling, and what could likely be pushed off for a bit (like "Echo", unless her story includes an important plot point for the "MS", which I doubt it does). So with that in mind, I think that we'll see some noticeable changes before mid/late 2025, if not in the quality of the content, but just the shear amount of it and how it's handled. I mean, if you treat every new Marvel D+ release like a movie of the week, that's how people are going to perceive it. So I think that starting with 2024 (and maybe 2023) we're going to start seeing every new MCU release (D+ or theater) as being treated as more of an "epic event" to generate the hype that I think has been somewhat lost in Phase 4 by it being a new MCU project every other month.

Anyhow, those are my thoughts. I apologize for the "Avatar 2"-sized length of this post (take THAT Cameron!), but I do rather enjoy civilized conversation on these topics and tend to indulge myself whenever I get the chance. See below for my DL;DR. Cheers!

DL;DR:
- I make jokes 😉
- I think that there were a number of factors that contributed to Phase 4 being what it was including COVID, D+, and the pressure on Feige from Chapek to get as much new Marvel out onto D+ ASAP (purely my assumption based on what I've read)
- Feige was, however, ultimately responsible for the new content that we got as CCO and tried to use to opportunities to set everything up for the Multiverse Saga while wrapping up the "IW" Saga AND while also trying to expand inclusivity, diversity, and representation whenever possible
- Naturally studios are going to want to use popular established characters to lure viewers to check out their new characters
- Personally I think that Kevin was waiting on the call to revamp their Phase 5 & 6 plans and he and his team got right to work on that so I think that we'll start seeing some announcements and other notable changes way sooner than mid/late 2025 (fingers crossed)

That's it man. If you read through the whole post I hope you had a nice glass of scotch or something comparable while doing so (BTW if you think this one is long, I had originally finished my first version of this post and the lost it due to that damned "Error: Server..." so I had to start all over and I'm pretty sure this version is longer). Best!

@Scarilian - I think that we're mostly on the same page here, but I'll make some additional comments in response to your responses to my responses to your responses to your, oh hell, you know what I mean, Instead of copying and pasting your comments I'll just enumerate them because I've been doing computer stuff all day and I'm getting lazy:

(From top to bottom)
1. Definitely a lot of factors and in some ways a "perfect storm". Aside from everything else I mentioned, you are correct that Feige wanted to change things up, but he kinda had to. I mean, they were falling into that trap where everyone was referring to the "Marvel Formula" (which, as you notice, doesn't really get bandied about much these days, although I'm sure that there are some who would like a return to the good 'ole days of the "Marvel Formula") which basically was "arrogant white guy f**ks up, learns his lesson, and then becomes a superhero". So that lent to movies (and now shows) focusing on different genders, ethnicities, environments (on-planet and off), etc. Plus, the MCU had to expand, so the character opportunities expanded with it. It was a natural progression. Plus, dude, if I had to sit through 22 movies of the "Marvel Formula" as I described it above just to get to the end of the "Infinity Saga" I probably would have checked out after movie 10 or so. Movie 10 or 11. Maybe 12. But you get my point.

2. "The idea has always been to diversify to cause controversy/conversation they can use as a marketing tactic". I both agree and disagree on this point. I think from the exec's point of view (and this is in general, not just Disney), you're probably right. It's a business decision. Everything is. ROIs, bottom lines, etc. But from the "Creatives" point of view (i.e. Kevin and on down) I think that they really wanted to be able to tell stories that had all this diversity, not for diversities sake, but for the story-telling potential that it opened up for them. I mean I can't speak for Kevin or anyone on his team, but he really seems like someone who is passionate about being all to use all these different characters to tell all these different stories. I've made posts before about I imagine that in Kevin's head it's like he's got a toy box full of Marvel figures that he can dump out on the rug and go *pew pew* with. Now, he's obviously the President of Marvel in addition to the CCO, so I'm not saying that he's not always conscious of the business side of things (as he has to be), but I'd like to believe that while the execs are thinking "yeah let's do a woman led movie - that ought to bring in a lot of revenue from all the discussion and open up new areas of financial growth", Kevin's more like "Oh I get to use Captain Marvel now? Cool! So... what if she meets Fury back in the 90s and...". But I could be wrong.

3. I wouldn't say that the show wouldn't hold up without DD or KP, but it most likely wouldn't have the same attraction, unless the writing, acting, etc. was just STELLAR. I mean, you can look at something like "Stranger Things", which didn't have any characters that we'd heard of (except for Captain Nostalgia) and not exactly A-list actors (Winona's been on low profile for a number of years), but it managed to gain a massive following due to the quality of the writing and production value. So it can be done. But in the MCU it would be tough because of everyone's expectations. Marvel has kind of gotten themselves into this situation where they made everything so connected (more or less) that everyone expects that. So if they offer a new show about a relatively unknown character, regardless of the quality of the show, we're all going to be watching going "yeah this is really good but when is _______ going to show up? Or how does this tie into _______?", which exactly what's going to happen whenever "Echo" comes out.

4. Actually, I think that DD is going to be pretty awesome and I'm not worried. Sure, they could water him down as a character, but I think that a number of factors indicate (to me anyway) that DD is going to be a big deal, so I'm not too worried that they're going to f**k this up. So you start with the fact that Marvel (like other entertainment companies) are not stupid in the sense that they listen to what the fans say. I can't promise, but I wouldn't surprised if they have people reading our comments on this site and others almost daily. They've got it. They know what we like and what we want. Now how far they can/will go to get us that is the mystery because they can't just give the fanboys everything they want all the time (good God I can't imagine what kind of a Frankenstein's most of a show that would look like). But the fact that they are going with (as far as we know) a TV-MA rating for "DD:BA" in the US is to me proof that they listened to the fans that loved the Netflix show and want that level of DD intensity. Now, I doubt that we're going to see KP killing someone with a car door, but we'll see how far they're willing to go with that rating.

Also, an 18 episode series commitment UP FRONT is a pretty big deal, even if it's just half hour episodes, which I don't think that we have confirmation on. And if the rumors are true about Spidey 4 being a Spidey and DD team up at some point (which I hope it is), this all makes sense. I mean, what better way to get another $!billion+ Spidey movie than to spend the time up to that point building up the hype with DD, KP, et. al (Spidey doesn't need any hyping). Just makes perfect sense to me, creatively and financially. Lastly, I think that Marvel was testing the waters on DD in the MCU with "NWH" and "She-Hulk" and based on the response, I think they got their answer. So, I think that we're going to get something great with "DD:BA" and I would expect Marvel to hype it quite a bit.

5. Yeah, I do post some long posts (this one for example), probably more often than not, but it really depends on the topic, if I feel like I have something to say that requires a lot of words, what I'm doing at work (I'm a Data Scientist so I build Machine Learning models and sometimes you just have to let them run which can take hours so then I either go do stuff around my house (I WFH) or get online and read/post). etc. But other times I'll just post a snarky sentence or two. Oh, and I'm an adjunct professor, so I have this innate need to hear myself talk 😉.